Todmorden already has two existing supermarkets and an Asda soon on its way, we do not need another supermarket particularly when there is a fantastic market in the town.
Also, the poll isn’t obvious. I’ve now posted a link on facebook. I suggest everyone do the same. The larger the number of votes, the clearer the picture.
We all agree Saul but it has been on the front page of The Todmorden News and on our Facebook.
Pages for a few days now.
You will also note the changes made as we have been requested by the council to remove the coat of arms.
No problem, Chris. I’ll keep the poll on my status and hope that the word spreads.
That was a very good piece you wrote in the other thread, by the way. Very well informed. I would hope that people take the time to read it and digest its contents.
Shame you didn’t talk about the eyesore that Sainsbury’s would be as the building is hideous, but I suppose design is subjective and we all have our own tastes.
Thank you Saul but I would like to remain impartial as people are quite abhorrent once they think they have an idea of what side you are on… Only today my mother was shunned by a condescending councilor
I don’t understand this poll. There is no way of leaving your postcode to make it a local vote. Surely the votes could all be from Hebden Bridge or even Sainsbury’s head office?
Hi Rebecca
That’s seems a strange suggestion when postal codes are freely available. It would be ideal if everyone left their full name but that’s not going to happen either. However you politely signed in, with an email address, to stress your point which we are grateful for
To be fair Chris, Rebecca does have a point. I’ve been on a few forums and I’m sure that there are a substantial number of Hebden Bridge residents who would be in favour of a Sainsbury’s in Todmorden. That said, I think they would still do their ‘big shop’ in the Halifax store but a Sainsbury’s in Tod also, would be much more convenient and it wouldn’t stop them voting in favour here. It’s them that will be better served by one than the residents of Tod after all.
We ran a poll over on facebook and out of 419 votes, only 49 were in favour of a Sainsbury’s. I know for a fact that not everyone who voted (for or against) was from Todmorden.
All that said, I’m confident that the final outcome of this poll will be the same as any previous ones which is roughly 5 to 1 against.
We do not need another supermarket in Todmorden. The site could be used for something far more exciting. Todmorden is a beautiful place and supermarkets are ugly.
Could we please join the three blog posts together. At the moment there’s 11 comments on this post, 18 on another and 5 more on the ‘do we need…’ post?
This issue has damaged this town beyond repair, so much so that people, (like Chris has said), once they know which side you’re on will shun you. Hope you’re all satisfied with yourselves.
Not had that personally Janice. Quite the opposite. I seem to be stopping and talking to more people about this than anything, for and against.
I think this might possibly be the making of the town rather than damaging it beyond repair as collectively more people take an interest in what Todmorden is about. I realise that’s going to put some people’s noses out of joint but that’s life – you never get 100% of people agreeing.
This poll is actually too simplistic. I think the town has enough supermarkets, but I have heard people say they would prefer a Sainsburys to Morrisons. The land is there, lets be creative and make something that will be an asset to the town and make people want to come here to our great market and the lovely small shops and cafes
.
The poll question wording appears to have changed now to “Would you like a Sainsburys” instead of prefer. Ugh! Doesn’t that now invalidate the entire poll if you’re going to change the question mid-poll?
In hindsight, the question should have been ‘do you want another supermarket?’ This isn’t opposition to Sainsbury’s but the more supermarkets. Especially on that site. This is rather a complex issue.
@Shaun, having read Dr. Smales report a couple of times and heard my favourite planning officer read chunks of it out at committee, you’d think that I might have noticed, wouldn’t you? I did think he must have based his views on that report……
@Chris, you should really have credited Dr. Smales with that post as his academic credentials put extra weight behind its contents. Not that any of the pro-Sainsbury’s lobby would read it anyway. It seems that the most important issue to them is not having to drive out of Todmorden. Forget the market, our cultural herritage, the life and prosperity of our town, the canal scenery……..”so long as I can get my Warburtons loaf from Sainsbury’s instead of Morrisons or Asda, I’m happy.”
I’m sorry guys that you find the blog confusing, and make the comment that the questions have changed. It states clearly “Vote here” and has never changed. Please stick to the debate otherwise I will have no alternative but to ban you from entering comments.
My intention of the blog was to allow people to contribute to making Todmorden economically, socially and environmentally friendly. I feel that having comments on this blog allows the people of Todmorden to express an opinion and adds value in that it gives us a good idea as to the reason behind the vote. It also gives people the opportunity to contribute new ideas.
Please note that there is a link to e mail, Facebook and twitter allowing the general public to post this link on their own Facebook page as you have done. The Todmorden News ran a front page article last week bringing the blog to the attention of the readers of the newspaper, who are generally residents of Todmorden. This blog should be used for the purpose of voting and expressing an opinion on the topic of the vote as apposed to criticism of the blog itself, which was started with the very best of intentions.
The Site is about how many people vote yes or no to wanting a Sainsbury’s and not the comments which are interesting enough as this allow the people of Todmorden to express their opinion and as Comments are always valuable to indicate opinion and contribute new ideas, without necessarily having to vote yes or no on a particular question, it is however, a good thing to have a comment on why the particular vote was made. The fact that comments are on different pages shouldn’t make a difference to the fundamental purpose of this blog
I again apologise that some people are dissatisfied, you cannot always please everyone, at how it has turned out but it was just an idea that I had to get people to contribute to the welfare and aspirations for an economically, socially and environmentally friendly Todmorden.
Should you still feel that the site is unsatisfactory, as it is simple enough you could possibly design one of your own.
Yes I do thiink we should have another supermarket in Tod otherwise this land is going to stay an eyesore for years to come.If someone could come up with a definite viable plan that would be good for the town and also create jobs for people then that would be a different story but nobody has come up with anything. Are there any real investors that are prepared to build something on this land? I dont think so but if you know better then let us know who they are and then we can decide which is the best option.
jax3101, so, your reasoning for having another supermarket is simply to plug up a derelict hole in Todmorden?
That really doesn’t make any sense whatsoever. You may have missed the discussion on the other posts on this blog but basically, if Sainsbury’s is built on Halifax road then it would put the building of Asda on the Olympia/Abraham Ormerod site in jeopardy. Asda themselves said so. You’d be swapping one derelict site for another and leaving an eyesore in the very heart of the town instead of on it’s outskirts. Sainsbury’s would also put a question mark over development on Rose St and make existing shops, including Lidl, Morissons and smaller shops less viable. You can’t just take the Halifax Road site and address it in isolation.
There are developers that wish to develop on Halifax Road. I can’t tell you who because that is commercially sensitive. The problem is, they can’t bid on the site currently because the bank has given Sainsbury’s an option to purchase the land that precludes anyone else bidding. It’s remained derelict for so long because Sainsbury’s have sat on it for years. Blame Sainsbury’s for it being derelict still.
I’m not sure where you’ve been exactly if you think ‘nobody has come up with anything’. Try http://facebook.com/todmarina which is viable and is but one possible use for it other than a supermarket.
Actually I own a shop on Halifax Road and know that it is approximately 3 years since Stannard homes were on that site and since then nobody seems to have had any interest in it until Sainsbuys said they wanted to build. Suddenly someone has come up with the marina idea, would this have happened if Sainsburys didnt want the land, probably not. There are too many derelict sites in Tod and something must be done to build up the town not just the town centre but on the outskirts as well. We are all trying to make a living but no-one seems to bother if your shop is not in the town centre.
Sainsbury’s have had the option to build on the site since not long after Stannards went bust. There have been other developers, including a marina developer, who have wanted to build there but could not because the bank holding Stannards assets gave the option to Sainsbury’s. Sainsbury’s have to go away first before anyone else can come forward. As I wrote earlier, the reason it’s still derelict is because Sainsbury’s have blocked anyone else from developing it and sat on it for years. It wasn’t until Asda/Netto put in a planning application that Sainsbury’s did anything.
Furthermore, a supermarket can and will outbid any other developer so while the possibility of planning permission for a supermarket exists, the land is worth a lot more to the bank than any other development. Estimates of approx 3 times the non-supermarket value would not be beyond reason. No developer is going to come forward with a proposal as they simply can’t outbid Sainsbury’s for the land.
The Marina proposal is a realistic proposal based on what we know could be built if Sainsbury’s went away. It’s not just created out of the blue with no commercial basis. It’s been put together by highly skilled and professional people who know what developers are likely to build in the current market. It’s purpose was to show Todmorden there are other possible uses for the site rather than just saying no to Sainsbury’s.
You don’t say which shop on Halifax Road is yours. I appreciate that you may benefit from shoppers from Sainsbury’s visiting your shop but I would think you may benefit more from the canal being opened up with bars, restaurants, tourists, canal boat owners and people staying in a hotel. Or if it ends up as residential, from the houses opposite your shop. I also appreciate that Sainsbury’s have offered to pay to tidy up the shop fronts opposite their store which must be an incentive to say yes to Sainsbury’s. I think that would be short sighted from the perspective of Todmorden as a whole and from the perspective of shop owners on Halifax Road also.
How about the space is turned into artists/craftspeople open workshops? We have loads of arty types here in Tod creating stuff with few places other than Tod station to showcase their work. It could be such a inspiring setting rather than yet another supermarket, and help might draw people in to the existing shops. “Totally Crafty Todmorden” … Just a thought …
Arts and crafts workshops? Are you for real? A town full of unemployed people that has been decimated yet further with the loss of Sutcliffe’s…..I despair…makes me wonder where I’m living sometimes…
Agreed there Janice. Whatever is built on the site has to improve Todmorden’s local economy and create jobs overall in Todmorden. That’s why I’m against Sainsbury’s as it will do neither.
Sainsburys have not offered to tidy up our shop front but I am open to ideas for the site but do think that we have a lot of cafes and retaurants in the town so dont know whether we can stand any more unless it does bring a lots of tourists to the town. What we need is something to attract people to visit and spend some time in the town.
We already have a lot of supermarkets in the town too. How about a similar development to The Moorings in Sowerby Bridge where they’ve developed the waterfront for mixed use? Talking to people from there they reckon that development kick-started the regeneration of Sowerby Bridge. Now it has become a real destination for people and geographically, it’s not too different to Tod.
Let’s face it Saul, as it stands now we only have one decent supermarket in the town, namely Morrisons, surely you can’t be counting Lidl and the One Stop as part of that equation? They’re not decent supermarkets, not by any stretch of the imagination! Sainsbury’s would have been great for the town…and I’m sorry Shaun but I have to disagree with your comment about not creating jobs overall – Morrisons employs plenty of folk from Tod, and supermarkets do offer long term sustainable employment – I’ve worked at Asda in the past and some staff have been there for 20 odd years or more. A mixed use scheme as Saul suggests could be a feasible option I suppose, with much of the emphasis on the retail aspect…..yet I fear that idea would also be roundly opposed by the Market Mafia…..
Janice, we’re not counting ‘decent supermarkets’ we’re counting ‘supermarkets’. No need to get snobbish over what you consider decent or not.
You also have to count Asda which has planning permission already which being of a similar size to Sainsbury’s would create in the region of 150 jobs also.
However, consider these two points.
1) Sainsbury’s themselves said that they expected that their business would come from a 30% DROP in trade at other retailers in the town which I would suggest would force some to close and some to lay off staff.
2) Asda have said they would reconsider building a store in Todmorden at all if Sainsbury’s went ahead. Bang goes the jobs created at Asda.
Explain how you believe Sainsbury’s will have a net positive on jobs in the town given those two points?
I’m sure I replied to this earlier but it appears to have disappeared.
Janice,
Asda have a supermarket planned which will bring in jobs to Todmorden – about the same amount as Sainsbury’s since they are of a similar size. They’ve intimated that they won’t build it if Sainsbury’s open.
Lidl have said that their store is not viable if Sainsbury’s is built.
Sainsbury’s have said that they expect to pick up trade from other retailers in the town and that other retailers will see a 30% drop in trade. A 30% drop in trade may be enough to push some retailers out of business entirely or to significantly reduce their staff.
That is why I believe there will be no net gain in jobs in Todmorden and possibly a net loss.
When questioned about the jobs at committee, Sainsbury’s pretty much admitted that any employment they create would come from elsewhere in the town. This isn’t job creation, it’s just a reshuffle. Same goes for the derelict sites. If Sainsbury’s, then not Asda. If Sainsbury’s and Asda, then not Morissons. As Asda already has planning permission, would that not be the sensible option to support? Afterall, the Abraham Ormerod site has no other interest.
Regarding the ‘market mafia’ as you choose to call them, they are only protecting their livelyhood. I worked on that market over twenty years ago and there were people there then who are still there now. Imagine if your way of life, everything you have worked for, your income were threatened by a bullying multinational company who can afford the best spin doctors to spread lies and hoodwink half a town into believeing their side of things. The market traders can’t afford that luxury. The best they can hope for is to group together and fight the best they can with the help of the public and local councillors.
This application was not rejected on a whim, or through pressure from a bunch of angry marketstall holders. There was a very long and informed consultation process. Those who were sitting on the committee weren’t muppets. They are very intelligent people who asked the right questions from all sides. What came out of that meeting was the sheer arrogance shown by Sainsbury’s in the way they fudged figures and best statistics to suit their application as they saw fit.
At the end of the questioning, the committee has no other option but to reject the application. Sainsbury’s themselves saw to that.
Halifax Road in Todmorden used to be one long corridor, very depressing especially in the winter months. I was so pleased when the old factory building was knocked down, but despaired again when I saw the size of the Health Centre, dominating the skyline. I think its very important to keep that site low-level, what ever happens to it. The marina makes perfect sense, makes use of local geographical features, offers leisure amenity to densely populated area, and lets light into a shady area. If yet another supermarket can make money, why couldn’t a group of small shops that sold similar things? It also seems to me, with the popularity of allotments these days, there could be a visitor attraction from showcasing the work of Incredible Edible there?
Sainsbury’s wouldn’t close down Morrison’s, they are a big firm and can survive a drop in profits. It would close down the market where the margins are smaller and the businesses more precarious
It’s not so long ago Saul that the Market Mafia were up in arms with the Council regarding the introduction of parking charges……and now they’re best buddies. And yes, I will continue to refer to them as the Market Mafia, they seem to think they run this town,….and yes, I will never ever set foot on the market again…I wouldn’t buy a piece of cheese from there if my life depended on it…..
Hi Janice. I would just like to know why we are dubbed the market mafia considering that all that the market traders or tenants have actually done along I might add with other retailers in the town centre is to read the Tod news and watch the war around us. It is people like yourselves who is firing this debate not us and by the by I dont think you will be missed on the martket certainly not by me. as I dont recolledct ever seeing you as a regular. Have any of you taken the time to speak to management from Lidl, who have told us that ,in a short version of their conversation with myself and others ,is Sainsburys in Lidl out. Were you at the meeting at Halifax when the Asda Representative more or less stated that they were awaiting the outcome of the meeting before they started to build. 100 other people heard this. so do you and others like you want to see two derelict sites instead of one,( which we all agree is an eyesore and needs something doing with)
So if you need to lay the blame lay it elsewhere. People like yourselves obviously dont give a tinkers about our town and its future.
Yes, people like myself who do care about their hometown and who would like to see it move forwards, not backwards and who welcome the opportunity of employment, progress, change and competition. I’m certainly not alone in my way of thinking, not by a long way……it’s not just me who has boycotted the market, I know a number of people who have followed suit because of certain attitudes……
Thinking that a town can be moved forward by building a supermarket is not only extremely shortsighted and narrow minded, it’s very misguided too. If you did your homework Janice, you would know that over development of supermarkets kills town centres. This isn’t just a suggestion or calculated reasoning, it’s a fact.
If you can’t be bothered to read up on it, then just have a quick drive to Rawtenstall and stand at the end of Bank Street. To your left you will see an enormous Asda that sells everything. To your right there is a the derelict, but once thriving, precinct.
There are many, many more examples of such town centre dereliction and this is what you are unwittingly wishing upon Todmorden.
Joanne, I’m entitled to my opinion, (everyone else so loves to voice theirs) and I, like many others are just as for a supermarket, just as you and others are against. I do keep my eyes and ears open and I know for a fact that some people in Tod have spoken to and treated in a disgraceful manner regarding this issue….something I find unacceptable
But why one or the other? It is possible for the two to co-exist…..why does everyone seem to think the market would suffer? To be fair, Rawtenstall centre was never much of anything to start with but the market’s still going. Saul, this is nothing personal – I’ve read all your posts and you come across as a decent person, you certainly conduct yourself far more admirably than those in some quarters….and to be perfectly honest with you, that’s been one of the main reasons why this issue has incensed me so much….
Janice, you’re correct. It is possible for both to exist. However, when you factor in Morrisons, Lidl, Asda and One Stop you’re entering unknown territory. Who knows what effect Asda will have, let alone yet another supermarket. Why take the risk?
Regarding your stance on this subject, you have constantly and consistantly used derogatory terms like ‘market mafia’ and ‘self-righteous’ when describing any objectors. The truth is that the market forms a small proportion of the opposition. Other opposition groups include, Todmorden Pride, Todmorden Business Association, Incredible Edible, Todmorden in Bloom, Bear Wholefoods, Todmorden Town Council, and also councillors from Conservative, Labour and the Lib Dems who all spoke in opposition at committee. Add to that the many people such as myself who would just like to see the town headed in a different direction and you can begin to get an understanding of the scale and diversity of this opposition group. This has been a massive coming together from all quarters and you must at least ask yourself what it is that we all know that the Sainsbury’s supporters don’t. With your lack of informed arguments and your persistent name calling, it’s quite clear that you flatly refuse to listen to any of the facts from people like myself, Shaun Murray and others who give their time up and spend it on the internet trying to educate people about this case. We are not peddling lies and fudged figures, unlike ‘Local Dialogue’ (Sainsbury’s spin doctors) we are peddling facts. All the information that supports our case is freely available for anyone who has the time of inclination to bother to read it.
Regarding the ‘Roston Vasey’ comment, that’s now becoming a little favourite of yours, you can’t see the irony in your insult, can you? You persistently shout about how you’re Tod, born and bred, which I suspect is a slight at anyone who isn’t. When you look at all the groups listed above, you will see one thing that they all have in common. Everyone of those groups wants to encourage people to come to Todmorden, quite the opposite from your ‘nothing for you here’ jibe. Most people that I speak to who have moved to Tod, have done so because, amongst other things, of scenery, town centre and transport links. They don’t move here because we have supermarkets. The chances are, they have moved away from a town with a large supermarket, often after a supermarket has wrecked their town. To suggest that a nice big shiny supermarket will be the making of the town is the sort of attitude that you would expect from an indsular, small minded, short sighted resident of Royston Vasey.
Regarding this ‘bigger picture’ you have mentioned that we all can’t see, I want to see some development that will entice even more people to move here. That’s why I’m backing the marina project. If more people who move here, the price of propertly will rise. If that happens, then developers will begin building houses on derelict sites in the town. If that happens, then further investment will follow as construction always leads the way. With enough public support and investment we could see a town centre redevlopment from Rose Street to the Town Hall that everyone can be proud of. Who knows, this could include a ‘Sainsbury’s local’ for all you people who insist on that particular brand. If they did want to take a modest sized anchor store there and invest in the town centre, I wouldn’t stand in their way.
What you are unwittingly condeming the town to is a centre which is more of the same as we have. Pound shops and charity shops. Boarded up shops. Very little commerce when our neighbouring town thrives. Another of your little gems is that we want to make Tod a ‘poor mans Hebden Bridge’, whatever the hell that means. This is another example of your short-sightedness. Todmorden will never be Hebden Bridge. It’s an entirely different class of people. In my opinion, Hebden is prodominantly ‘educated middle class’ whilst Tod is prodominantly ‘working class’ and I’m pretty sure that this has a major influence when it comes to funding from Calderdale. It is a clear fact that whilst Hebden is a jewel in Calderdales crown, Todmorden is regarded as the arsehole of the vally. Why else would they have so much money ploughed into their town whilst we watch our decay. Why else would would planners advise that they choose to build this store in Tod rather than Hebden. Can you imagine scaffolding outside Hebden Bridge town hall for over two years? The very idea is utterly ludicrous, and yet that scaffolding will still be there when I go down Tod today. So why shouldn’t we fight for some of what they have? What’s wrong with that? Why can’t we have some of those funds and investment to turn this town into something we want? Not a clone town of Hebden Bridge but an individual and beautiful town that we can all be proud to call our own. We have things that they don’t have. Whilst we have the scenery, we have a more open aspect, better architecture, better transport links and above all, we have space to park our cars. We should be capitalising on this and yet we aren’t. And why is that?
Unfortunately, the answer is because of you and people like you. People who are blinkered and swallow any old rubbish that you’re told by the likes of Sainsbury’s and their expert liars who are hellbent on moving into town. People who are happy for a company to provide a supermarket for the next town on after they refused to have one themselves. People would would roll over and sacrifice our scenery in favour of a giant, hideous shed that has a limited supply of bland food products. People who would sacrifice our existing market and struggling small businesses in favour of 150 low paid, part time jobs.
……..and for what? What would you get out of this that’s so precious to you and people like you that you? What is it that would sway you to want to head the town in this direction?
The answer is that you would be able to shop at a Sainsbury’s that’s closer to you. And that is the reason why those who are opposed become so frustrated and the town is so divided.
I happen to think that stall holders being abusive to members of the general public as far more unacceptable than any of my so called derogatory comments – and that is the reason why the market doesn’t get my patronage anymore. People in certain quarters should be very careful what they say……or they will be in grave danger of losing trade, with or without Sainsbury’s..
If that’s your argument, Janice then there’s no hope of reasoning with you. After all I’ve written above, you fail to address even one of my points but continue to quibble about people getting heated in debates where their very livelyhood is as stake.
Amazingly, after all the debate I’ve had on this issue, abusive or otherwise, the person whose tone seems to be the most bitter and aggressive, both in letters to the Tod News and also on internet forums is yours. However, I doubt that even this blindingly obvious little fact will register with you.
I agree entirely with you. Perhaps the indoor market could open up either one late night a week or on Sunday/Monday/Tuesday to service needs.
Furthermore, it is interesting to see Morrisons suddenly developing a conscience about Todmorden. They have treated Todmorden with contempt for many years and are now planning to expand and build around their site. So there must be demand to be filled.
The indoor market’s opening hours are 9 – 5.30pm, Monday to Saturday except for half day Tuesday and Sunday btw.
I do think there’s scope for Sunday opening provided there’s enough people milling about the town centre on a Sunday, and that’s another reason why a Sainsbury’s down Halifax road is a mistake and building something that attracts people into the town is needed.
I totally don’t get your comment about Morissons. I’m pretty sure a) they’ve developed no more of a conscience than they did before and b) there’s no more or less contempt. Any plans they have for expanding come about because they’re currently over trading, they need to move the road junction because of the Environment Agency and they’re faced with competition, finally.
There is indeed a demand for a new supermarket. Most people aren’t disputing that. Morrisons is ridiculously busy, especially at weekends. That’s why Asda have been granted planning permission.
I may be wrong about this but I think that Morrisons have been hampered by flooding issues. I suspect that any proposed expansion will coincide with the current works by the environment agency around their site which will result in a new, better vehicular access.
Glad to see that the poll is now reflecting what I think is the majority view in Todmorden ie that we don’t want another supermarket esp as Asda already has permission to build. This vote against sainburys is in line with the large number of people who signed the petition presented to the planning committee and those who wrote in in objection to the plans (over 400 people I think).
I can only support the marina project if there is a developer willing to take it on, who has invested their own money in it (no public money), who has planning permission. Until that happens the marina project is pie in the sky.
Please some concrete facts about the marina.
What is the budget. Who are the developers. Have any plans being developed (beyond fancy 3d graphics). Has any analysis been done on actual tourist level figures. Have British Waterways signed up for the project. Will the landowners (Sainsbury’s) sell the land.
Better with a project which is better for the economy now than a project which has no sign of becoming reality.
Jon, firsty, to clear things up, there is a marina developer willing to take the land on and Sainsbury’s are not the land owners. Sainsbury’s have paid for first refusal on the site should their application be granted. If they are refused planning permission, then other developers (including the marina operator) will make their move. If not, then it will be a Sainsbury’s store.
Regarding the issue with British Waterways and toursim, I know that a substantial amount of money was bid for the land prior to Sainsbury’s becoming involved. The amounts of money involved would suggest that developer would have done their homework. Beyond that, I don’t know.
I did speak to the news editor of British Waterways magazine however who said that he thought this was a fantastic proposal and just what this stretch of the Rochdale Canal needs.
…and here are some choice comments from around the country by those who have already experienced this…………….
“A new shop recently opened near me and the only staff who work full time there are the management. Each regular employee is given just a four or (if they are lucky) eight hour contract (a week). When it takes ten four hour a week employees to amount to the hours of one full time employee, the claims of hundreds of jobs being created is very easily (unfortunately albeit deceptively) realised.” – Steve Smith, Cornwall
“Having worked for Sainsbury’s in a distribution centre I know that when they say “new jobs” they get the local employment agency to provide temps on the minimum wage. Easier and no long time worries for them about giving contracts to new staff plus no sick pay and perks. Hire them and fire them, easy.” – Kev S, Hertfordshire,
“Just remember that the supermarket will extract more money FROM any local economy than it it will put into it – it has to in order to make a profit. Any new supermarket is bad for the town where it locates.” – John Wood, Hull,
“The new Sainsburys near us opened to a huge fanfare of creating 300 jobs – now nearly all those staff have been very quietly laid off and told not to go to the papers about it.” – PlumbersWAG, Essex,
“steve, cornwall, has it right, not only 4 or 8 hour contracts they are temporary rolling contracts, try paying a mortgage and bills with that!” – realistic, plymouth,
Saul, Thank you so much for all your posts. You articulate the views of those who oppose sainsburys extremely well and I for one am grateful that you still have the energy to engage with those who persist in their willful ignorance of the facts around this issue. I think its clear to anyone who can see further than the end of their nose that the arguments in favour of a sainsburys are utterly baseless and have been blown out of the water time and time again on forums like this one, by people who can actually be bothered to inform themselves. So far I haven`t seen a single post from a sainsburys supporter which actually engages with the arguments put forward against it, and not a shred of evidence has been forthcoming to substantiate their own claims as to the wonderful benefits that sainsburys will shower todmorden with. My suspicion is that those who want a sainsburys do so because it fulfills their own personal desires, and they are either willfully ignorant of the bigger picture or simply couldn`t care less about it…….
Thanks for the encouragement Kay, I couldn’t agree with your post more.
I do honestly agree with you that anyone who is in possession of all the facts and still supports Sainsbury’s is doing so not for the benefit of Todmorden, but for the benefit of themselves.
This can be for a number of different reasons, ie. they work for Sainsbury’s, they are existing Sainsbury’s customers and refuse to admit that this store will not match up to Halifax or Burnley. They live within walking distance. They dislike Abid and would like to see his shop closed down (incredibly, I have heard this one on numerous occasions), they believe that ‘The Market Mafia’ actually run this town and so support anything that’s damaging to them, (an attitude which is both childish and very damaging), or any one of a number of bizarre reasons.
The two main arguments of jobs and eyesores have been completely dismantled. Unfortunately, that doesn’t stop people keep on repeating them.
I have recently heard that Sainsbury’s would benefit the local economy but this is a very subjective statement. If anyone reading this truly believes this (including Sainsbury’s) then I would invite them to post and elaborate on what they actually mean.
The opening of a Sainsburys will have many effects but as previously said, many of these will not result in causing major problems like employment.
However, when it comes to the economical impact this will have, a Sainsburys will very likely dominate the retailing sector of the town’s economy and probably put out all the competition. The result will be that Sainsburys are very likely going to be in control of their prices and product range within a short space of time.
Sainsburys are a national franchise and there prices are regulated across the country so we can safely say that we are never going to be affected by ridiculous price raises in our area alone due to them holding the monopoly of the retail in the area. However, remember that we are affected by all the surrounding Sainsburys. If they run into any economic trouble in some other part of the country, it will hit our stores and affect the prices we have to pay.
In the end the vote is yours but remember that a large scale shop needs to have its competitors so that we the consumers have the final decision over what we buy and the proposed plans will not give us this choice.
joepitts74
September 12, 2011 at 16:03
Todmorden already has two existing supermarkets and an Asda soon on its way, we do not need another supermarket particularly when there is a fantastic market in the town.
Saul Caldwell
September 12, 2011 at 19:46
The poll should have been a simple ‘yes’ or ‘no’.
Saul Caldwell
September 12, 2011 at 19:49
Also, the poll isn’t obvious. I’ve now posted a link on facebook. I suggest everyone do the same. The larger the number of votes, the clearer the picture.
C.M.Baksa
September 12, 2011 at 20:02
We all agree Saul but it has been on the front page of The Todmorden News and on our Facebook.
Pages for a few days now.
You will also note the changes made as we have been requested by the council to remove the coat of arms.
Saul Caldwell
September 12, 2011 at 20:20
No problem, Chris. I’ll keep the poll on my status and hope that the word spreads.
That was a very good piece you wrote in the other thread, by the way. Very well informed. I would hope that people take the time to read it and digest its contents.
Shame you didn’t talk about the eyesore that Sainsbury’s would be as the building is hideous, but I suppose design is subjective and we all have our own tastes.
C.M.Baksa
September 12, 2011 at 20:34
Thank you Saul but I would like to remain impartial as people are quite abhorrent once they think they have an idea of what side you are on… Only today my mother was shunned by a condescending councilor
Rebecca
September 13, 2011 at 15:53
I don’t understand this poll. There is no way of leaving your postcode to make it a local vote. Surely the votes could all be from Hebden Bridge or even Sainsbury’s head office?
C.M.Baksa
September 13, 2011 at 16:23
Hi Rebecca
That’s seems a strange suggestion when postal codes are freely available. It would be ideal if everyone left their full name but that’s not going to happen either. However you politely signed in, with an email address, to stress your point which we are grateful for
Saul Caldwell
September 13, 2011 at 18:21
To be fair Chris, Rebecca does have a point. I’ve been on a few forums and I’m sure that there are a substantial number of Hebden Bridge residents who would be in favour of a Sainsbury’s in Todmorden. That said, I think they would still do their ‘big shop’ in the Halifax store but a Sainsbury’s in Tod also, would be much more convenient and it wouldn’t stop them voting in favour here. It’s them that will be better served by one than the residents of Tod after all.
We ran a poll over on facebook and out of 419 votes, only 49 were in favour of a Sainsbury’s. I know for a fact that not everyone who voted (for or against) was from Todmorden.
All that said, I’m confident that the final outcome of this poll will be the same as any previous ones which is roughly 5 to 1 against.
Helen Sargeant
September 13, 2011 at 21:14
We do not need another supermarket in Todmorden. The site could be used for something far more exciting. Todmorden is a beautiful place and supermarkets are ugly.
Shaun Murray (@aegisdesign)
September 13, 2011 at 22:19
Could we please join the three blog posts together. At the moment there’s 11 comments on this post, 18 on another and 5 more on the ‘do we need…’ post?
Janice Duerden
September 14, 2011 at 05:28
This issue has damaged this town beyond repair, so much so that people, (like Chris has said), once they know which side you’re on will shun you. Hope you’re all satisfied with yourselves.
Shaun Murray (@aegisdesign)
September 14, 2011 at 09:23
Not had that personally Janice. Quite the opposite. I seem to be stopping and talking to more people about this than anything, for and against.
I think this might possibly be the making of the town rather than damaging it beyond repair as collectively more people take an interest in what Todmorden is about. I realise that’s going to put some people’s noses out of joint but that’s life – you never get 100% of people agreeing.
Marilyn Browne
September 14, 2011 at 06:38
This poll is actually too simplistic. I think the town has enough supermarkets, but I have heard people say they would prefer a Sainsburys to Morrisons. The land is there, lets be creative and make something that will be an asset to the town and make people want to come here to our great market and the lovely small shops and cafes
.
Shaun Murray (@aegisdesign)
September 14, 2011 at 10:56
The poll question wording appears to have changed now to “Would you like a Sainsburys” instead of prefer. Ugh! Doesn’t that now invalidate the entire poll if you’re going to change the question mid-poll?
Saul Caldwell
September 14, 2011 at 11:37
In hindsight, the question should have been ‘do you want another supermarket?’ This isn’t opposition to Sainsbury’s but the more supermarkets. Especially on that site. This is rather a complex issue.
@Shaun, having read Dr. Smales report a couple of times and heard my favourite planning officer read chunks of it out at committee, you’d think that I might have noticed, wouldn’t you? I did think he must have based his views on that report……
@Chris, you should really have credited Dr. Smales with that post as his academic credentials put extra weight behind its contents. Not that any of the pro-Sainsbury’s lobby would read it anyway. It seems that the most important issue to them is not having to drive out of Todmorden. Forget the market, our cultural herritage, the life and prosperity of our town, the canal scenery……..”so long as I can get my Warburtons loaf from Sainsbury’s instead of Morrisons or Asda, I’m happy.”
C.M.Baksa
September 14, 2011 at 12:35
I’m sorry guys that you find the blog confusing, and make the comment that the questions have changed. It states clearly “Vote here” and has never changed. Please stick to the debate otherwise I will have no alternative but to ban you from entering comments.
My intention of the blog was to allow people to contribute to making Todmorden economically, socially and environmentally friendly. I feel that having comments on this blog allows the people of Todmorden to express an opinion and adds value in that it gives us a good idea as to the reason behind the vote. It also gives people the opportunity to contribute new ideas.
Please note that there is a link to e mail, Facebook and twitter allowing the general public to post this link on their own Facebook page as you have done. The Todmorden News ran a front page article last week bringing the blog to the attention of the readers of the newspaper, who are generally residents of Todmorden. This blog should be used for the purpose of voting and expressing an opinion on the topic of the vote as apposed to criticism of the blog itself, which was started with the very best of intentions.
The Site is about how many people vote yes or no to wanting a Sainsbury’s and not the comments which are interesting enough as this allow the people of Todmorden to express their opinion and as Comments are always valuable to indicate opinion and contribute new ideas, without necessarily having to vote yes or no on a particular question, it is however, a good thing to have a comment on why the particular vote was made. The fact that comments are on different pages shouldn’t make a difference to the fundamental purpose of this blog
I again apologise that some people are dissatisfied, you cannot always please everyone, at how it has turned out but it was just an idea that I had to get people to contribute to the welfare and aspirations for an economically, socially and environmentally friendly Todmorden.
Should you still feel that the site is unsatisfactory, as it is simple enough you could possibly design one of your own.
jax3101
September 14, 2011 at 17:07
Yes I do thiink we should have another supermarket in Tod otherwise this land is going to stay an eyesore for years to come.If someone could come up with a definite viable plan that would be good for the town and also create jobs for people then that would be a different story but nobody has come up with anything. Are there any real investors that are prepared to build something on this land? I dont think so but if you know better then let us know who they are and then we can decide which is the best option.
Shaun Murray (@aegisdesign)
September 14, 2011 at 17:41
jax3101, so, your reasoning for having another supermarket is simply to plug up a derelict hole in Todmorden?
That really doesn’t make any sense whatsoever. You may have missed the discussion on the other posts on this blog but basically, if Sainsbury’s is built on Halifax road then it would put the building of Asda on the Olympia/Abraham Ormerod site in jeopardy. Asda themselves said so. You’d be swapping one derelict site for another and leaving an eyesore in the very heart of the town instead of on it’s outskirts. Sainsbury’s would also put a question mark over development on Rose St and make existing shops, including Lidl, Morissons and smaller shops less viable. You can’t just take the Halifax Road site and address it in isolation.
There are developers that wish to develop on Halifax Road. I can’t tell you who because that is commercially sensitive. The problem is, they can’t bid on the site currently because the bank has given Sainsbury’s an option to purchase the land that precludes anyone else bidding. It’s remained derelict for so long because Sainsbury’s have sat on it for years. Blame Sainsbury’s for it being derelict still.
I’m not sure where you’ve been exactly if you think ‘nobody has come up with anything’. Try http://facebook.com/todmarina which is viable and is but one possible use for it other than a supermarket.
jax3101
September 14, 2011 at 19:41
Actually I own a shop on Halifax Road and know that it is approximately 3 years since Stannard homes were on that site and since then nobody seems to have had any interest in it until Sainsbuys said they wanted to build. Suddenly someone has come up with the marina idea, would this have happened if Sainsburys didnt want the land, probably not. There are too many derelict sites in Tod and something must be done to build up the town not just the town centre but on the outskirts as well. We are all trying to make a living but no-one seems to bother if your shop is not in the town centre.
Shaun Murray (@aegisdesign)
September 14, 2011 at 23:16
Jax3101,
Sainsbury’s have had the option to build on the site since not long after Stannards went bust. There have been other developers, including a marina developer, who have wanted to build there but could not because the bank holding Stannards assets gave the option to Sainsbury’s. Sainsbury’s have to go away first before anyone else can come forward. As I wrote earlier, the reason it’s still derelict is because Sainsbury’s have blocked anyone else from developing it and sat on it for years. It wasn’t until Asda/Netto put in a planning application that Sainsbury’s did anything.
Furthermore, a supermarket can and will outbid any other developer so while the possibility of planning permission for a supermarket exists, the land is worth a lot more to the bank than any other development. Estimates of approx 3 times the non-supermarket value would not be beyond reason. No developer is going to come forward with a proposal as they simply can’t outbid Sainsbury’s for the land.
The Marina proposal is a realistic proposal based on what we know could be built if Sainsbury’s went away. It’s not just created out of the blue with no commercial basis. It’s been put together by highly skilled and professional people who know what developers are likely to build in the current market. It’s purpose was to show Todmorden there are other possible uses for the site rather than just saying no to Sainsbury’s.
You don’t say which shop on Halifax Road is yours. I appreciate that you may benefit from shoppers from Sainsbury’s visiting your shop but I would think you may benefit more from the canal being opened up with bars, restaurants, tourists, canal boat owners and people staying in a hotel. Or if it ends up as residential, from the houses opposite your shop. I also appreciate that Sainsbury’s have offered to pay to tidy up the shop fronts opposite their store which must be an incentive to say yes to Sainsbury’s. I think that would be short sighted from the perspective of Todmorden as a whole and from the perspective of shop owners on Halifax Road also.
Helen
September 14, 2011 at 21:47
How about the space is turned into artists/craftspeople open workshops? We have loads of arty types here in Tod creating stuff with few places other than Tod station to showcase their work. It could be such a inspiring setting rather than yet another supermarket, and help might draw people in to the existing shops. “Totally Crafty Todmorden” … Just a thought …
Janice Duerden
September 15, 2011 at 05:30
Arts and crafts workshops? Are you for real? A town full of unemployed people that has been decimated yet further with the loss of Sutcliffe’s…..I despair…makes me wonder where I’m living sometimes…
Shaun Murray (@aegisdesign)
September 15, 2011 at 10:52
Agreed there Janice. Whatever is built on the site has to improve Todmorden’s local economy and create jobs overall in Todmorden. That’s why I’m against Sainsbury’s as it will do neither.
Saul Caldwell
September 15, 2011 at 07:51
…….what about a mixed use scheme, Janice? Residential, bars, restaurants, retail…..? How does that sound?
jax3101
September 15, 2011 at 15:20
Sainsburys have not offered to tidy up our shop front but I am open to ideas for the site but do think that we have a lot of cafes and retaurants in the town so dont know whether we can stand any more unless it does bring a lots of tourists to the town. What we need is something to attract people to visit and spend some time in the town.
Saul Caldwell
September 15, 2011 at 16:41
We already have a lot of supermarkets in the town too. How about a similar development to The Moorings in Sowerby Bridge where they’ve developed the waterfront for mixed use? Talking to people from there they reckon that development kick-started the regeneration of Sowerby Bridge. Now it has become a real destination for people and geographically, it’s not too different to Tod.
Janice Duerden
September 15, 2011 at 17:11
Let’s face it Saul, as it stands now we only have one decent supermarket in the town, namely Morrisons, surely you can’t be counting Lidl and the One Stop as part of that equation? They’re not decent supermarkets, not by any stretch of the imagination! Sainsbury’s would have been great for the town…and I’m sorry Shaun but I have to disagree with your comment about not creating jobs overall – Morrisons employs plenty of folk from Tod, and supermarkets do offer long term sustainable employment – I’ve worked at Asda in the past and some staff have been there for 20 odd years or more. A mixed use scheme as Saul suggests could be a feasible option I suppose, with much of the emphasis on the retail aspect…..yet I fear that idea would also be roundly opposed by the Market Mafia…..
Joanne Connor
September 15, 2011 at 22:11
Market Mafia….quite wearing that now Janice and very boring!!!!
Shaun Murray (@aegisdesign)
September 16, 2011 at 10:59
Janice, we’re not counting ‘decent supermarkets’ we’re counting ‘supermarkets’. No need to get snobbish over what you consider decent or not.
You also have to count Asda which has planning permission already which being of a similar size to Sainsbury’s would create in the region of 150 jobs also.
However, consider these two points.
1) Sainsbury’s themselves said that they expected that their business would come from a 30% DROP in trade at other retailers in the town which I would suggest would force some to close and some to lay off staff.
2) Asda have said they would reconsider building a store in Todmorden at all if Sainsbury’s went ahead. Bang goes the jobs created at Asda.
Explain how you believe Sainsbury’s will have a net positive on jobs in the town given those two points?
Shaun Murray (@aegisdesign)
September 16, 2011 at 14:22
I’m sure I replied to this earlier but it appears to have disappeared.
Janice,
Asda have a supermarket planned which will bring in jobs to Todmorden – about the same amount as Sainsbury’s since they are of a similar size. They’ve intimated that they won’t build it if Sainsbury’s open.
Lidl have said that their store is not viable if Sainsbury’s is built.
Sainsbury’s have said that they expect to pick up trade from other retailers in the town and that other retailers will see a 30% drop in trade. A 30% drop in trade may be enough to push some retailers out of business entirely or to significantly reduce their staff.
That is why I believe there will be no net gain in jobs in Todmorden and possibly a net loss.
Saul Caldwell
September 15, 2011 at 17:57
When questioned about the jobs at committee, Sainsbury’s pretty much admitted that any employment they create would come from elsewhere in the town. This isn’t job creation, it’s just a reshuffle. Same goes for the derelict sites. If Sainsbury’s, then not Asda. If Sainsbury’s and Asda, then not Morissons. As Asda already has planning permission, would that not be the sensible option to support? Afterall, the Abraham Ormerod site has no other interest.
Regarding the ‘market mafia’ as you choose to call them, they are only protecting their livelyhood. I worked on that market over twenty years ago and there were people there then who are still there now. Imagine if your way of life, everything you have worked for, your income were threatened by a bullying multinational company who can afford the best spin doctors to spread lies and hoodwink half a town into believeing their side of things. The market traders can’t afford that luxury. The best they can hope for is to group together and fight the best they can with the help of the public and local councillors.
This application was not rejected on a whim, or through pressure from a bunch of angry marketstall holders. There was a very long and informed consultation process. Those who were sitting on the committee weren’t muppets. They are very intelligent people who asked the right questions from all sides. What came out of that meeting was the sheer arrogance shown by Sainsbury’s in the way they fudged figures and best statistics to suit their application as they saw fit.
At the end of the questioning, the committee has no other option but to reject the application. Sainsbury’s themselves saw to that.
Suzanne Bryson
September 15, 2011 at 18:20
Halifax Road in Todmorden used to be one long corridor, very depressing especially in the winter months. I was so pleased when the old factory building was knocked down, but despaired again when I saw the size of the Health Centre, dominating the skyline. I think its very important to keep that site low-level, what ever happens to it. The marina makes perfect sense, makes use of local geographical features, offers leisure amenity to densely populated area, and lets light into a shady area. If yet another supermarket can make money, why couldn’t a group of small shops that sold similar things? It also seems to me, with the popularity of allotments these days, there could be a visitor attraction from showcasing the work of Incredible Edible there?
Sainsbury’s wouldn’t close down Morrison’s, they are a big firm and can survive a drop in profits. It would close down the market where the margins are smaller and the businesses more precarious
Janice Duerden
September 15, 2011 at 18:45
It’s not so long ago Saul that the Market Mafia were up in arms with the Council regarding the introduction of parking charges……and now they’re best buddies. And yes, I will continue to refer to them as the Market Mafia, they seem to think they run this town,….and yes, I will never ever set foot on the market again…I wouldn’t buy a piece of cheese from there if my life depended on it…..
Joanne Connor
September 15, 2011 at 22:15
Very personal that Janice…but not very constructive!!!!
Jean Hartley
September 15, 2011 at 19:59
Hi Janice. I would just like to know why we are dubbed the market mafia considering that all that the market traders or tenants have actually done along I might add with other retailers in the town centre is to read the Tod news and watch the war around us. It is people like yourselves who is firing this debate not us and by the by I dont think you will be missed on the martket certainly not by me. as I dont recolledct ever seeing you as a regular. Have any of you taken the time to speak to management from Lidl, who have told us that ,in a short version of their conversation with myself and others ,is Sainsburys in Lidl out. Were you at the meeting at Halifax when the Asda Representative more or less stated that they were awaiting the outcome of the meeting before they started to build. 100 other people heard this. so do you and others like you want to see two derelict sites instead of one,( which we all agree is an eyesore and needs something doing with)
So if you need to lay the blame lay it elsewhere. People like yourselves obviously dont give a tinkers about our town and its future.
Joanne Connor
September 15, 2011 at 22:12
Well said Jean!!!!!
Janice Duerden
September 15, 2011 at 21:49
Yes, people like myself who do care about their hometown and who would like to see it move forwards, not backwards and who welcome the opportunity of employment, progress, change and competition. I’m certainly not alone in my way of thinking, not by a long way……it’s not just me who has boycotted the market, I know a number of people who have followed suit because of certain attitudes……
Saul Caldwell
September 16, 2011 at 08:38
Thinking that a town can be moved forward by building a supermarket is not only extremely shortsighted and narrow minded, it’s very misguided too. If you did your homework Janice, you would know that over development of supermarkets kills town centres. This isn’t just a suggestion or calculated reasoning, it’s a fact.
If you can’t be bothered to read up on it, then just have a quick drive to Rawtenstall and stand at the end of Bank Street. To your left you will see an enormous Asda that sells everything. To your right there is a the derelict, but once thriving, precinct.
There are many, many more examples of such town centre dereliction and this is what you are unwittingly wishing upon Todmorden.
Janice Duerden
September 16, 2011 at 05:56
Joanne, I’m entitled to my opinion, (everyone else so loves to voice theirs) and I, like many others are just as for a supermarket, just as you and others are against. I do keep my eyes and ears open and I know for a fact that some people in Tod have spoken to and treated in a disgraceful manner regarding this issue….something I find unacceptable
Saul Caldwell
September 16, 2011 at 08:20
Janice, hypothetically speaking,if it were a straight choice between Sainsbury’s and the Market, which would you choose?
Janice Duerden
September 16, 2011 at 10:44
But why one or the other? It is possible for the two to co-exist…..why does everyone seem to think the market would suffer? To be fair, Rawtenstall centre was never much of anything to start with but the market’s still going. Saul, this is nothing personal – I’ve read all your posts and you come across as a decent person, you certainly conduct yourself far more admirably than those in some quarters….and to be perfectly honest with you, that’s been one of the main reasons why this issue has incensed me so much….
Saul Caldwell
September 17, 2011 at 08:22
Janice, you’re correct. It is possible for both to exist. However, when you factor in Morrisons, Lidl, Asda and One Stop you’re entering unknown territory. Who knows what effect Asda will have, let alone yet another supermarket. Why take the risk?
Regarding your stance on this subject, you have constantly and consistantly used derogatory terms like ‘market mafia’ and ‘self-righteous’ when describing any objectors. The truth is that the market forms a small proportion of the opposition. Other opposition groups include, Todmorden Pride, Todmorden Business Association, Incredible Edible, Todmorden in Bloom, Bear Wholefoods, Todmorden Town Council, and also councillors from Conservative, Labour and the Lib Dems who all spoke in opposition at committee. Add to that the many people such as myself who would just like to see the town headed in a different direction and you can begin to get an understanding of the scale and diversity of this opposition group. This has been a massive coming together from all quarters and you must at least ask yourself what it is that we all know that the Sainsbury’s supporters don’t. With your lack of informed arguments and your persistent name calling, it’s quite clear that you flatly refuse to listen to any of the facts from people like myself, Shaun Murray and others who give their time up and spend it on the internet trying to educate people about this case. We are not peddling lies and fudged figures, unlike ‘Local Dialogue’ (Sainsbury’s spin doctors) we are peddling facts. All the information that supports our case is freely available for anyone who has the time of inclination to bother to read it.
Regarding the ‘Roston Vasey’ comment, that’s now becoming a little favourite of yours, you can’t see the irony in your insult, can you? You persistently shout about how you’re Tod, born and bred, which I suspect is a slight at anyone who isn’t. When you look at all the groups listed above, you will see one thing that they all have in common. Everyone of those groups wants to encourage people to come to Todmorden, quite the opposite from your ‘nothing for you here’ jibe. Most people that I speak to who have moved to Tod, have done so because, amongst other things, of scenery, town centre and transport links. They don’t move here because we have supermarkets. The chances are, they have moved away from a town with a large supermarket, often after a supermarket has wrecked their town. To suggest that a nice big shiny supermarket will be the making of the town is the sort of attitude that you would expect from an indsular, small minded, short sighted resident of Royston Vasey.
Regarding this ‘bigger picture’ you have mentioned that we all can’t see, I want to see some development that will entice even more people to move here. That’s why I’m backing the marina project. If more people who move here, the price of propertly will rise. If that happens, then developers will begin building houses on derelict sites in the town. If that happens, then further investment will follow as construction always leads the way. With enough public support and investment we could see a town centre redevlopment from Rose Street to the Town Hall that everyone can be proud of. Who knows, this could include a ‘Sainsbury’s local’ for all you people who insist on that particular brand. If they did want to take a modest sized anchor store there and invest in the town centre, I wouldn’t stand in their way.
What you are unwittingly condeming the town to is a centre which is more of the same as we have. Pound shops and charity shops. Boarded up shops. Very little commerce when our neighbouring town thrives. Another of your little gems is that we want to make Tod a ‘poor mans Hebden Bridge’, whatever the hell that means. This is another example of your short-sightedness. Todmorden will never be Hebden Bridge. It’s an entirely different class of people. In my opinion, Hebden is prodominantly ‘educated middle class’ whilst Tod is prodominantly ‘working class’ and I’m pretty sure that this has a major influence when it comes to funding from Calderdale. It is a clear fact that whilst Hebden is a jewel in Calderdales crown, Todmorden is regarded as the arsehole of the vally. Why else would they have so much money ploughed into their town whilst we watch our decay. Why else would would planners advise that they choose to build this store in Tod rather than Hebden. Can you imagine scaffolding outside Hebden Bridge town hall for over two years? The very idea is utterly ludicrous, and yet that scaffolding will still be there when I go down Tod today. So why shouldn’t we fight for some of what they have? What’s wrong with that? Why can’t we have some of those funds and investment to turn this town into something we want? Not a clone town of Hebden Bridge but an individual and beautiful town that we can all be proud to call our own. We have things that they don’t have. Whilst we have the scenery, we have a more open aspect, better architecture, better transport links and above all, we have space to park our cars. We should be capitalising on this and yet we aren’t. And why is that?
Unfortunately, the answer is because of you and people like you. People who are blinkered and swallow any old rubbish that you’re told by the likes of Sainsbury’s and their expert liars who are hellbent on moving into town. People who are happy for a company to provide a supermarket for the next town on after they refused to have one themselves. People would would roll over and sacrifice our scenery in favour of a giant, hideous shed that has a limited supply of bland food products. People who would sacrifice our existing market and struggling small businesses in favour of 150 low paid, part time jobs.
……..and for what? What would you get out of this that’s so precious to you and people like you that you? What is it that would sway you to want to head the town in this direction?
The answer is that you would be able to shop at a Sainsbury’s that’s closer to you. And that is the reason why those who are opposed become so frustrated and the town is so divided.
Janice Duerden
September 17, 2011 at 10:41
I happen to think that stall holders being abusive to members of the general public as far more unacceptable than any of my so called derogatory comments – and that is the reason why the market doesn’t get my patronage anymore. People in certain quarters should be very careful what they say……or they will be in grave danger of losing trade, with or without Sainsbury’s..
Saul Caldwell
September 17, 2011 at 11:47
If that’s your argument, Janice then there’s no hope of reasoning with you. After all I’ve written above, you fail to address even one of my points but continue to quibble about people getting heated in debates where their very livelyhood is as stake.
Amazingly, after all the debate I’ve had on this issue, abusive or otherwise, the person whose tone seems to be the most bitter and aggressive, both in letters to the Tod News and also on internet forums is yours. However, I doubt that even this blindingly obvious little fact will register with you.
People in glass houses…………………………
Janice Duerden
September 17, 2011 at 12:37
I give up.
TD11
September 19, 2011 at 08:01
Janice
I agree entirely with you. Perhaps the indoor market could open up either one late night a week or on Sunday/Monday/Tuesday to service needs.
Furthermore, it is interesting to see Morrisons suddenly developing a conscience about Todmorden. They have treated Todmorden with contempt for many years and are now planning to expand and build around their site. So there must be demand to be filled.
Shaun Murray (@aegisdesign)
September 19, 2011 at 09:34
The indoor market’s opening hours are 9 – 5.30pm, Monday to Saturday except for half day Tuesday and Sunday btw.
I do think there’s scope for Sunday opening provided there’s enough people milling about the town centre on a Sunday, and that’s another reason why a Sainsbury’s down Halifax road is a mistake and building something that attracts people into the town is needed.
I totally don’t get your comment about Morissons. I’m pretty sure a) they’ve developed no more of a conscience than they did before and b) there’s no more or less contempt. Any plans they have for expanding come about because they’re currently over trading, they need to move the road junction because of the Environment Agency and they’re faced with competition, finally.
Saul Caldwell
September 19, 2011 at 18:27
There is indeed a demand for a new supermarket. Most people aren’t disputing that. Morrisons is ridiculously busy, especially at weekends. That’s why Asda have been granted planning permission.
I may be wrong about this but I think that Morrisons have been hampered by flooding issues. I suspect that any proposed expansion will coincide with the current works by the environment agency around their site which will result in a new, better vehicular access.
Shaun Murray (@aegisdesign)
September 19, 2011 at 19:45
Testing…testing 1…2….3
Just testing, my last 4 comments have not been published.
Saul Caldwell
September 19, 2011 at 20:28
You been using rude words Shaun….?
Shaun Murray (@aegisdesign)
September 20, 2011 at 17:52
Only when reading some of the comments, not typing.
Rachel Smith
September 20, 2011 at 15:17
Glad to see that the poll is now reflecting what I think is the majority view in Todmorden ie that we don’t want another supermarket esp as Asda already has permission to build. This vote against sainburys is in line with the large number of people who signed the petition presented to the planning committee and those who wrote in in objection to the plans (over 400 people I think).
Jon Axtell
September 24, 2011 at 13:54
I can only support the marina project if there is a developer willing to take it on, who has invested their own money in it (no public money), who has planning permission. Until that happens the marina project is pie in the sky.
Please some concrete facts about the marina.
What is the budget. Who are the developers. Have any plans being developed (beyond fancy 3d graphics). Has any analysis been done on actual tourist level figures. Have British Waterways signed up for the project. Will the landowners (Sainsbury’s) sell the land.
Better with a project which is better for the economy now than a project which has no sign of becoming reality.
Saul Caldwell
September 25, 2011 at 08:01
Jon, firsty, to clear things up, there is a marina developer willing to take the land on and Sainsbury’s are not the land owners. Sainsbury’s have paid for first refusal on the site should their application be granted. If they are refused planning permission, then other developers (including the marina operator) will make their move. If not, then it will be a Sainsbury’s store.
Regarding the issue with British Waterways and toursim, I know that a substantial amount of money was bid for the land prior to Sainsbury’s becoming involved. The amounts of money involved would suggest that developer would have done their homework. Beyond that, I don’t know.
I did speak to the news editor of British Waterways magazine however who said that he thought this was a fantastic proposal and just what this stretch of the Rochdale Canal needs.
Saul Caldwell
September 25, 2011 at 08:08
Here’s a little insight about what Sainsbury’s would actually mean for Todmorden and the local economy…..
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1363719/Tesco-Sainsburys-accused-hollow-job-creation-claims.html#ixzz1Ywv9Tr85
…and here are some choice comments from around the country by those who have already experienced this…………….
“A new shop recently opened near me and the only staff who work full time there are the management. Each regular employee is given just a four or (if they are lucky) eight hour contract (a week). When it takes ten four hour a week employees to amount to the hours of one full time employee, the claims of hundreds of jobs being created is very easily (unfortunately albeit deceptively) realised.” – Steve Smith, Cornwall
“Having worked for Sainsbury’s in a distribution centre I know that when they say “new jobs” they get the local employment agency to provide temps on the minimum wage. Easier and no long time worries for them about giving contracts to new staff plus no sick pay and perks. Hire them and fire them, easy.” – Kev S, Hertfordshire,
“Just remember that the supermarket will extract more money FROM any local economy than it it will put into it – it has to in order to make a profit. Any new supermarket is bad for the town where it locates.” – John Wood, Hull,
“The new Sainsburys near us opened to a huge fanfare of creating 300 jobs – now nearly all those staff have been very quietly laid off and told not to go to the papers about it.” – PlumbersWAG, Essex,
“steve, cornwall, has it right, not only 4 or 8 hour contracts they are temporary rolling contracts, try paying a mortgage and bills with that!” – realistic, plymouth,
kaychown
September 26, 2011 at 19:23
Saul, Thank you so much for all your posts. You articulate the views of those who oppose sainsburys extremely well and I for one am grateful that you still have the energy to engage with those who persist in their willful ignorance of the facts around this issue. I think its clear to anyone who can see further than the end of their nose that the arguments in favour of a sainsburys are utterly baseless and have been blown out of the water time and time again on forums like this one, by people who can actually be bothered to inform themselves. So far I haven`t seen a single post from a sainsburys supporter which actually engages with the arguments put forward against it, and not a shred of evidence has been forthcoming to substantiate their own claims as to the wonderful benefits that sainsburys will shower todmorden with. My suspicion is that those who want a sainsburys do so because it fulfills their own personal desires, and they are either willfully ignorant of the bigger picture or simply couldn`t care less about it…….
Saul Caldwell
September 27, 2011 at 12:47
Thanks for the encouragement Kay, I couldn’t agree with your post more.
I do honestly agree with you that anyone who is in possession of all the facts and still supports Sainsbury’s is doing so not for the benefit of Todmorden, but for the benefit of themselves.
This can be for a number of different reasons, ie. they work for Sainsbury’s, they are existing Sainsbury’s customers and refuse to admit that this store will not match up to Halifax or Burnley. They live within walking distance. They dislike Abid and would like to see his shop closed down (incredibly, I have heard this one on numerous occasions), they believe that ‘The Market Mafia’ actually run this town and so support anything that’s damaging to them, (an attitude which is both childish and very damaging), or any one of a number of bizarre reasons.
The two main arguments of jobs and eyesores have been completely dismantled. Unfortunately, that doesn’t stop people keep on repeating them.
I have recently heard that Sainsbury’s would benefit the local economy but this is a very subjective statement. If anyone reading this truly believes this (including Sainsbury’s) then I would invite them to post and elaborate on what they actually mean.
A Khan
October 2, 2011 at 09:12
The opening of a Sainsburys will have many effects but as previously said, many of these will not result in causing major problems like employment.
However, when it comes to the economical impact this will have, a Sainsburys will very likely dominate the retailing sector of the town’s economy and probably put out all the competition. The result will be that Sainsburys are very likely going to be in control of their prices and product range within a short space of time.
Sainsburys are a national franchise and there prices are regulated across the country so we can safely say that we are never going to be affected by ridiculous price raises in our area alone due to them holding the monopoly of the retail in the area. However, remember that we are affected by all the surrounding Sainsburys. If they run into any economic trouble in some other part of the country, it will hit our stores and affect the prices we have to pay.
In the end the vote is yours but remember that a large scale shop needs to have its competitors so that we the consumers have the final decision over what we buy and the proposed plans will not give us this choice.
Big Dutch Man
October 10, 2011 at 14:37
New Sainsburys? A definite yes for me.
More choice, local jobs and the removal of an eyesore. One that’s been bugging me for a very long time.
Two or three stalls aside, Todmorden market is a waste of time and is already dead.
As for the Marina idea, please get real, it isn’t going to happen.